Talk:Mariann Budde

Familiar Background

Is there any information where her family came from? Budde is a very well known family name in northern Germany. Gwele kloz (talk) 09:10, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

It seems to be her married name anyway. I suppose Edgar is her maiden name as it's unlikely to be her middle name. —Mahāgaja · talk 10:19, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

As it says (now?) in the article, Mariann Edgar Budde was born on December 10, 1959 in Summit, New Jersey, to a Swedish-American mother, Ann Björkman (1931–2024), and an American father, William Edgar. Zoetermeerder (talk) 10:23, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Lafayette Park

Why is this being reverted so that the article reads that the park was cleared for a Photo op? It's simply not true. The park was cleared for fencing to be installed. The reference is probably undue. Either take it out or correct it but it shouldn't be wrong.

https://www.npr.org/2021/06/09/1004832399/watchdog-report-says-police-did-not-clear-protesters-to-make-way-for-trump-last- PerseusMeredith (talk) 16:48, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• The article now says that it was cleared, and makes no statement on the specific purpose for which it was cleared. Neutrality^talk 17:04, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  Thank you. Can we remove this part? Readers are still going to believe it was cleared for the photo op.

  "ahead of President Donald Trump's pose for a photo op " PerseusMeredith (talk) 17:15, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

• No. The temporal sequence of events is uncontested: there were demonstrators in the square, police and troops forcibly cleared them, then Trump walked over to the church for a photo op. Budde then criticized Trump. That's just the facts of it, and unless we say it (briefly), Budde's criticism will make no sense to the reader. (I agree that this article should not get into the details of tear gas, fencing, etc., because none of that is at the core of Budde's critique). Neutrality^talk 17:27, 22 January 2025 (UTC)

  I think you're correct that it wouldn't make sense to have the reference to the Photo op in the article. I think the current language also would let readers inaccurately believe that the park was cleared for the photo op. If we aren't going to include the language from NPR (which I think is appropriate), I I think fair compromise would be to include include language that it was Bishop Budde's belief at the time was that it was cleared for a photo op.

  "In June 2020, amid the George Floyd protests in Washington, DC, Budde criticized the use of police and National Guard troops to forcibly clear protestors from Lafayette Square ahead of President Donald Trump's pose for a photo op in front of St. John's Church, enabling its use "as a backdrop for a message antithetical to the teachings of Jesus." PerseusMeredith (talk) 19:23, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Block quote instead of paraphrasing?

As her plea was already short and concise, instead of paraphrasing the plea, wouldn't it be better to use a block quote to maintain the authenticity? The transcript of her plea can be found here: [1] LinusShapiro (talk) 09:23, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

I haven't looked, but is there a full transcript somewhere? If so, this could be mentioned in the text here with a link to it. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 01:05, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, I agree. Better to use a short actual quote from her statement rather than a paraphrase. 2603:800C:2300:A7:1DB3:C255:B939:B (talk) 18:48, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

DOB

Laterthanyouthink, re this edit, I think you are misreading WP:DOB. It says: "Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public." The bishop's date of birth is cited to the Episcopal Clerical Directory, which is published by the Episcopal Church itself - certainly a source linked to the subject! Neutrality^talk 16:48, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Agreed. Laterthanyouthink, the year of birth is clearly stated in the article in The Independent - also, since we allow sourcing of birthdates from profiles written by people themselves or published by their organizations, there is no problem here. Many politicians birthdates are sourced to their government profiles. Why wouldn't a clerical directory, created by her employer and presumably verified with the subject not be considered reliable? Skyerise (talk) 16:52, 23 January 2025 (UTC)

Yes, agree with YOB published in The Independent - no problem there. If you really want to publish DOB based on the Clerical Directory, I'll leave it, although IMO that is a printed book, presumably meant for members of the church and not widely disseminated, and the subjects may have no say in what is published about them. In general, I always err on the side of caution, personally, but will go with whatever you decide. Laterthanyouthink (talk) 00:59, 24 January 2025 (UTC)

I have removed the full date of birth per WP:BLPPRIVACY, agreeing with Laterthanyouthink's earlier removal citing WP:DOB (another shortcut to the same section regarding privacy) and reversing Neutrality's reinstatement. The date is not widely published (for example I had previously added a Guardian reference that gives only her age). The 2013 edition of the Episcopal Clerical Directory is not accessible to me online. The 2023 edition, which we were also citing, is viewable on Google Books (by me at least; I've added a URL) and gives only birth years (although it has full dates for marriages). If the 2013 edition has full dates of birth, the church has apparently since decided to preserve people's privacy by no longer publishing those. We have a policy of erring in that direction and should not go out of our way to make this person's full date of birth public, even if as I see above one news site has apparently published it. If several reputable news sources gave the full date, that would be another matter. Yngvadottir (talk) 19:40, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

• I don't really care about this minor point enough to pursue it, but the section you're linking to says Wikipedia includes full names and dates of birth that have been widely published by reliable sources, or by sources linked to the subject such that it may reasonably be inferred that the subject does not object to the details being made public." The clauses are disjunctive ("or" rather than "and")—so it need not be "widely published" if it's published by subjects linked to the source (which the Clerical Directory clearly is). I also don't think we can discern anything from the Directory published a DOB in one edition and a YOB in the other addition - that decision was not necessarily based on some sort of privacy concern. (It could be to save space or any number of other reasons.) Again, minor points, and as for me, I'm happy to just go with the year only, but I wanted to note them. Neutrality^talk 22:15, 30 January 2025 (UTC)

DYK qualification

Neutrality, Laterthanyouthink, Skyerise, Northern-Virginia-Photographer, and anyone else who might be interested, this article has been recently expanded nearly sufficiently to qualify to appear on the Main Page as a Did you know blurb. It only needs 1084 more characters to be a fivefold expansion, but these would have to be added by 28 January. I think it would make a powerful hook (blurb). Surtsicna (talk) 23:00, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Awesome - I'll add a bit more for the internment of Matthew Shepherd & the 2020 DNC (within reason). Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 00:43, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Nice! Let me know when you are done if you need any help with the DYK nomination. Surtsicna (talk) 00:55, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Installed as bishop

I note that the bit about her consecration and the later bit about her first sermon as being the first after the earthquake are connected. The wayback machine https://web.archive.org/web/20111114062212/http://www.nationalcathedral.org:80/ shows that her consecration on the 12th (a Saturday) and her first sermon on the Sunday (the 13th) were part of the reopening weekend after the earthquake. However we could probably do with a good newspaper source (Washington Post might be possible) rather than just the cathedral website. Erp (talk) 23:44, 25 January 2025 (UTC)

Ask, and ye shall receive: Washington National Cathedral, still bearing quake scars, reopens, from The Post: https://wapo.st/4hq0gTW (Gift link that is free to read!) "More than 2,000 worshipers gathered for the first service with the Episcopal church's new bishop of Washington, Mariann Edgar Budde. Also present were dozens of curiosity seekers and tourists eager for a look at the quake-damaged cathedral, which had been closed since Aug. 23." Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 01:09, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Thanks, have added and reworded that bit. Erp (talk) 06:03, 26 January 2025 (UTC)

Did you know nomination

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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Mariann Budde

• ... that the US President Donald Trump called Bishop Mariann Budde (pictured) a "Radical Left hard line Trump hater" after attending her "very boring" sermon?

• Source: "U.S. president calls the clergywoman a 'Radical Left hard line Trump hater' ... 'the service was a very boring and uninspiring one,' he added."

• ALT1: ... that the US Congressman Mike Collins called for Bishop Mariann Budde (pictured) to be "added to the deportation list" after she preached mercy to President Donald Trump? Source: GOP member wants bishop ‘added to deportation list’ after Trump prayer service
• Reviewed: Template:Did you know nominations/Roger Tocotes

Created by Surtsicna (talk), Neutrality (talk), Laterthanyouthink (talk), Skyerise (talk), and Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk). Number of QPQs required: 1. Nominator has 210 past nominations.

Surtsicna (talk) 23:25, 27 January 2025 (UTC).

• Always fun to see an American Anglicanism hook. QPQ done, nominated soon enough after expansion that exceeded 5x by about 1000 characters, with acceptable images. Preference is ALT1. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:58, 27 January 2025 (UTC)

Funnily enough, I only included ALT1 as a backup. I thought everyone would prefer ALT0! Let's see what the promoter picks. Surtsicna (talk) 00:16, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

I also prefer ALT1. Skyerise (talk) 01:33, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Same - I also prefer ALT1. Northern-Virginia-Photographer (talk) 13:13, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

If we use ALT1 we should probably have "New Jersey born Bishop...", since part of the oddity is that she is a US citizen by birth. Erp (talk)

That's a good idea. ~ Pbritti (talk) 23:56, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 January 2025

Where: In reference 4, there appears to be a typographical error. What: Change “hinor roll” to “honor roll” Why: The source cited clearly says Honor Roll. 75.117.31.47 (talk) 15:42, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

 Done. Thanks for spotting the typo. A. Randomdude0000 (talk) 15:46, 28 January 2025 (UTC)

Lafayette Park redux

I'm not sure why the discussion was removed. @Neutrality:, might not have seen my last comment. The article still reads as if the park was cleared for the Photo Op. That's not right. You correctly pointed out that it doesn't make sense if we don't have the reference to Bishop Budde's facts at the time that the park was cleared for a photo op. However, the OIG investigation concluded the removal was for fencing and not the photo op. I think her comments are undue for her biography at all and I think it should be removed. However, I'm willing to compromise and propose we include language regarding that the facts that Bishop Budde had at the time suggest it was cleared for a photo op. PerseusMeredith (talk) 16:03, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

It appears that the previous discussion was archived. As for the current text - it says nothing about why the park was cleared. It says the park was cleared "ahead of" the President's walk to the front of the church. That's true. This is simple timeline stuff. Neutrality^talk 17:08, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

There really is only one way to read the below sentence. That the Park was cleared for the photo op, otherwise, there is no need for the criticism. Assuming arguendo that it is simply silent and it is timeline, why can't we include clarifying language for what really happened? It would only be a couple of words. I do think that's a fair compromise.

"Budde criticized the use of police and National Guard to forcibly clear protestors from Lafayette Square ahead of President Donald Trump's pose for a photo op in front of St. John's Church," PerseusMeredith (talk) 18:12, 6 February 2025 (UTC)

I've restored the prematurely archived thread. Not sure who set the archiving period to 10d, but that is simply not appropriate. Skyerise (talk) 17:14, 6 February 2025 (UTC)